The definition of Socialism used here will be: Democratic and collective ownership of capital, property, and the means of production.
If you care to know (i.e., if you wish to properly refute my personal beliefs), the form of Socialism I advocate is Fabian Socialism, particularly in the form of a cooperative economy.
Give your reasons for or against Socialism here.
Bis das, si cito das.
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"I believe that Socialism is not good. This does not possibly allow full independence for some if not all people and requires taxpayers to possibly pay for others. "
What does full independence require? Why does Socialism inhibit it?
Why would taxpayers have to pay for others?
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What policies do you support in specific?
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For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question.
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"For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question."
For example:
Private businesses shouldn't be allowed
Progressive tax systems
free secondary education
authoritarianism
This is basically to understand exactly which type of socialism you support. Fabian socialism is broad and there might be too many misunderstandings and assumptions if I argue with you without knowing exactly what you believe in. I might even end up agreeing with many of your beliefs.
I support state-run economies. I call it a command economy, but they are the same thing. There shouldn't be too much of it, but at the right amount it is efficient.
I don't believe in a cooperative economy because the government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it. Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform.
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"government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers).
"Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform. "
That's a pretty large assumption to base your argument off of.
"Private businesses shouldn't be allowed"
I think I did say that I support this (as long as the business isn't a cooperative).
As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement.
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"Authoritarianism is not a policy."
Yes I know, but for my purposes I would have liked to know more about what you believed. Sorry for the weird wording, I couldn't really think of another way to say it.
""government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers)."
I don't think I understood what cooperative economies are. Can you explain?
"As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement."
Well then, I don't really disagree with you then. I believe the world should gradually move towards more socialist values.
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Socialism is immoral because it is premised on theft and envy and give tyrannical powers to the state. But it is perfectly consistent for the atheist to hate freedom and demand enslavement by the state.
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Go to a different argument if you have nothing meaningful to say on this one.
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You have added nothing to the conversation. Kindly leave.
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Yes it would be referred to as redistribution.
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In that case, Hitler did not murder a single Jew, since it was lawful under German law to take their lives. No, man does not define morality. To take that which is mine without my consent is stealing, no matter who or what says it is ok.
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Don’t be obtuse. No one murdered any Jews, since it was lawful to slaughter them. And it is YOU who use the wrong definition of stealing. But I expect nothing less from those who cover their neighbor’s stuff.
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https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nazi
Above is an example of the single most prominent instance of Socialism on the Planet Earth. In terms of sheer population numbers, impact, influence, capital gain, economic growth, power and control... the Nazi party is the prominent example in History. That's just about all that really "Needs" to be said about Socialism but I'm sure there are smaller and less significant examples of Socialism out there that have had marginal impact or influence in the world. This idea that "It's not fair because that wasn't TRUE _____(Fill in the blank)" is ridiculous. Just because someone hasn't come along with your perfect idea of a system of government and applied it in the way you want to see it applied doesn't mean that those who've tried and failed in the past are somehow just "Missing the mark" and that there's nothing wrong with that particular ideology.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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Hitler hated socialism and communism and many of his first victims were socialists and communists who have been part of the left-wing political parties opposing him. Left-wing socialist politics were actually very big at the time, hence Hitler's desire to call himself a socialist even if he didn't plan to carry out socialist policies.
If you can't actually put together a cogent argument against socialism "b-b-b-but Hitler" is a pretty poor substitute and insults the memory of those he killed specifically for being socialist.
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Cogent argument against socialism? Easy. Freedom is better than tyranny.
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